December 2009 Ethics Check

[Dale]

It's time for another Ethics Check brought to us by Bob Peck

http://www.theheritagehunters.com/content_admin/?p=1416

Your thoughts 

[SSgt Maynard]

WOW! Bob I don't remember you interviewing me for this Ethics Check. That matches me to the TEE....JUST KIDDING GUYS!!!
I think that this is a good one since there are so many people out there that are the same way.

Some things I can kind of agree with like I do believe that hunting does come down to the kill. So many people say its not about it..Its about sitting in the woods and having a good time...well if thats the case then why do they only do it during hunting season? I am not saying that everyone is this way but most are. I think that I am one of them. I do enjoy the time sitting in my blind and just pondering the thoughts of my day and then hoping to see a deer to shoot. That is my end result to kill that deer.

I really don't agree with the picking and choosing of the meat. You killed it you eat it. I am a firm believer in that!

I dont hunt Coyotes but I would have to say that at least he sells the pelts and does not just leave them there. He is doing something with it...What do most people do with them?


I am interested to see how others feel about this post...

[RobK]

When you think about it, it is all about the kill.  I guess if it wasn't then i wouldn't carry a bow/gun with me in the woods.

  As far eating the meat i would have to disagree with just taking a couple cuts of meat. Why not donate it, my experience there are alot of people that do not hunt that would love to have a deer in the freezer.  Why waste it. But i guess to each their own my feeling is as long as no laws are being broken then that person is entitled to what they want to do with that meat.  Who am i to judge.

I do coyote hunt sometimes and do not sell the hides, i usually just leave them lay, does that make me a bad guy, i don't know.  I guess i have always just thought of them as a nuisance. 

[SSgt Maynard]

I do coyote hunt sometimes and do not sell the hides, i usually just leave them lay, does that make me a bad guy, i don't know.  I guess i have always just thought of them as a nuisance. 

I would do the same if I ever killed one. Rob I am glad to see that I am not the only one with the thought about the kill. I thought for sure I was going to be booted from the site. haha

[tatersdad]

I agree it is about the kill. even though after a good day of hunting, and no killing, its good to know, my family ain't gonna starve.
next point..... from every thing I have read, even cave men, when they killed game, used every item of that prey's body for something. hide, hair and all. bone, guts you name it, it was used. does that make them less of a predator? or does that give them a higher degree of intelligence than a wolf or saber tooth cat? the Indians were "hunter gatherers" they even used the brains of the game for something.
Personally, I think the guy is wasteful.
I don't use all of the deer, but I do use every thing eatable.
Just my .02 
And I Leave dead song dogs lay too! as a predator, they are competition

[jemedm]

My take on this is, I think, rather simplistic:  I hunt because it provides for my family.  I really have a hard time just taking a part of the deer and leaving the rest.  Do I get EVERY piece of meat off the deer - no - but I take the majority of it and bury the rest.  Anything that can be used to lower bills for food or make a good broth is positive.

My dad taught me to always have respect for the animals that I kill -- whether squirrel, rabbit, deer, dove, or whatever.  Because, in his words which I can quote in my sleep, "that animal lost its life so you can provide nourishment for yours.  That fact is nothing to take lightly because it reminds me of what Jesus did for you on the cross."  My gain is something else's loss and that, he ingrained in me, must be considered deeply.

I do agree that man is a predator; however, what distinguishes us from animals is that we, well some of us, have morals and ethics that we follow.  Honestly, I struggled the first time I pulled that trigger on an animal (a dove).  Its one of those things that you do have to come to terms with, and, of course, I did.

Would I buy venison from the store if sold?  Probably not because that takes away my chance to provide for the family.  Besides, that means high fences for 'deer farms' and we all know about CWD.

The attitude of the person in the ethics check concerns me, but after reading many of these before, there's a catch in here somewhere.  I am really interested in the rest of the story.

[swampthing]

Interesting topic!

Here's some things that struck me in this:
1. I totally agree with the predator part.  I'm not a big one to use the term "Harvest" or sugar coat the fact that you just blew a hole through the deer (with broadhead or bullet), ripped it's intestines out of the body cavity and carted this thing back to camp, and now you want to show it some "respect"  I don't get that. 
2. I was lurking on another forum where they had this big discussion about a "celebrity" hunter....the dude that does the aerial bowfishing I think...and he shot an elk and threw his arrow down on it when he came upon it.  Some people got all righteous and thought he was being disrespectful.  I didn't understand that either.
3.

my good friend Bob Foulkrod used to always say “We harvest wheat.  We don’t harvest animals.  We .”

I'm assuming you've been around the "politically correct" arena of TV and advertisment if you're good friends with Mr. Foulkrod.  What do you think about all the PC stuff going on in the celebrity hunting world?  like for example wiping the blood off the animal for photos, etc.??  I'd like to hear your take on that.
4. I like what Tatersdad brought up about "higher degree of intelligence" and that makes sense to me.  Yeah, we're predators but we can "rationalize" things so this gives us qualms and things to possibly struggle with like "harvest" and such.  Plus, we are able and can see benefit in taking more than just the tenderloins, so we do. 
5. Personally, I think the guy in the story has has the right frame of mind but has decided to rationalize a little bit of laziness into his philosophy of hunting.  Just like some people rationalize the whole "respect" thing into their view of hunting. 
6. If the game laws in your state don't require you to do anything with the deer after you shoot it, I guess who am I to judge.  I would have asked him if he tags the deer or puts the tags with his package of T-loins.  Seems awfully tempting to just shoot stuff and not put tags on it.  I suppose you could rationalize not needing tags at all if we're all predators 

[SSgt Maynard]

The attitude of the person in the ethics check concerns me, but after reading many of these before, there's a catch in here somewhere.  I am really interested in the rest of the story.

Good POINT!

[Bob Peck]

The attitude of the person in the ethics check concerns me, but after reading many of these before, there's a catch in here somewhere.  I am really interested in the rest of the story.

  Uh oh.  You're on to me!  

[Bob Peck]

I'm assuming you've been around the "politically correct" arena of TV and advertisment if you're good friends with Mr. Foulkrod. 

I've been directly involved in the hunting industry for 13+ years in a variety of capacities from market researcher, product tester, outdoor writer and director of marketing.

During this tenure I've been blessed (no other word for it) to have either met, hunted with or worked for a "who's who" of hunting celebrities and business owners.

By and large I've enjoyed every minute but along the way I've learned many things I now wish I never learned.

What do you think about all the PC stuff going on in the celebrity hunting world?  like for example wiping the blood off the animal for photos, etc.??  I'd like to hear your take on that.

The honest truth is I'm torn. 

On the one hand the stereotypical non or anti hunter view of us is blood thirsty, drunken pigs driving around with dead deer on our vehicles.  It's too easy to say "Who cares about the anti's and the non-hunters?!" But ... the reality is these folks are our neighbors, our family, they attend the same churches, their kids play sports with ours and in many cases they are our law makers and decision makers.  I feel strongly that how we comport ourselves as representatives of the hunting sector is just as important as how we comport ourselves as humans.

To some degree (greater or lesser) when we play into this stereotype we're not doing ourselves any favors and we're not allowing for any real dialog to occur. 

I'd say 20 years ago there was a conscious effort to buck the stereotype which actually started with TV censors objecting to the display of blood, etc. Back then it was more about recruitment of hunters than it was about image management.

The "powers that be" in our industry made efforts in advertising, print materials and organizations like the ATA (archery trade association) to encourage the use of "harvest" vs kill and to use images of dead animals that were cleaned up for the shot.  The whole "respect" for the animal also was part of this deliberate strategy which exists to this day. 

On the other hand .... there's no getting around the fact hunting is a blood sport.  Sugar coating this to each other is silly.  There are aspects to what we do that are not pretty especially when shots go wrong.

I usually just say kill and my style is to not make jokes about bad shots and unethical practices.  I call 'em like I see 'em and frankly this has terminated my welcome in several hunting camps across the U.S.  But ... I will say as a group hunters are very interested in learning and crave perspective which is what I try to provide.

Not sure that helps but there it is. 

[swampthing]

Not sure that helps but there it is.

Of course it helps.  You did a nice job of painting perspective and I understand the viewpoint.  I see the aim of the "respect" and "harvest" movement toward those on the fence about hunting and their view of us so in that respect I quess I agree...within reason. 

I also understand why the hunting personalities would cater to this mindset, since the sponsorship dollar is on the line.  I've sat in my lazy boy many a time on Sat. mornings thinking how cool it would be to do what they do.  On the other hand, I also think it's easier to just hunt the way I want, and not be restricted by equipment or PC jargon.  So, yes, I understand....just look what happened to Tiger Woods and his sponsorships 

By and large I've enjoyed every minute but along the way I've learned many things I now wish I never learned.

sounds like you've got plenty of topics lined up for these here Ethics Checks 

I look forward to the rest of the story........

[Bob Peck]

I also understand why the hunting personalities would cater to this mindset, since the sponsorship dollar is on the line. 

"Cater" may not be exactly the right word.  The entire industry goes round based on money and the dream of a monster buck.  Sad as this may be it's what fuels the whole "celebrity" frenzy and sells product. 

Some "celebrities" are contractually bound to speak a certain way whether they like it or not.  If they don't, they're in violation of their contract.

Some actually believe this PC stuff and are convicted.  Nothing wrong there, it's just their perspective.

I've sat in my lazy boy many a time on Sat. mornings thinking how cool it would be to do what they do. 

Nah.  I dare say if 100% of the viewers actually knew what it takes to survive in the hunting industry and the personal sacrifice it takes my guess is most of us would say "Hell no.  I'm not spending Christmas away from my family again."  It's definitely not all glamor and monster bucks.  In many ways, you must be willing to sell your soul to the highest bidder and still maintain a grin on your face.

sounds like you've got plenty of topics lined up for these here Ethics Checks 

Yes and no.  This particular column is one of the most challenging I write. I'm trying to keep it real, be brief, put out some food for thought and hopefully we all learn something in the process. 

I look forward to the rest of the story........

And you know what?  I look forward to writing and sharing the rest of the story.  Honest.

Thanks for your kind words!

Bob

[hdracer]

Very interesting Ethics Check.  As I sit here typing (when I should be loading my truck to head to my stand - doh!) I think about my personal feelings on this.  Do I use ALL of what I kill?  No, I have no use for the skin, bones, etc.  Do I get every piece of meat off the animal?  Again, no.  But this year I plan on taking any animal to a processor which makes it easier on me and my family (my GF doesn't want a deer hanging from the tree.  I would imagine the neighbors might object as well).  But do I just cut out the backstraps and tenderloins? No, there is much more good eating left.  I do know guys that take only the best portions and leave the rest.  While I may have a problem with that personally, as far as I know there is no laws regulating the consumption of killed animals.  I know we are not supposed to just dump the carcasses along the side of the road.  I hunt a state park near here and wouldn't leave a carcass next to any of the hiking trails, either (that's about as PC as I get).  I respect the other park user's rights to enjoy the outdoors.  I would imagine that tripping over a dead deer on a park hiking trail would put a damper on their day as well as cause the park employees headaches. 

I have looked into donating venison to the local kitchens.  They want WHOLE deer, not one that has been picked over, and I don't have a problem with this at all.  But here is a question:  by doing so are you not out for the kill ONLY?  You are not taking the animal to feed your family.  Yes, you are feeding someone else with your kill.  While it is a great cause it does seem kinda hypocritical to me.  If these places weren't available wouldn't you still be out there to kill an animal just for the sake of killing it.  So we sugar coat that by saying "I donated".   

Does multiple tags lend itself to this type of hunting behavior?  One deer should be enough to feed an average family; maybe two for a large family.  Why do we need to have 3, 5, 8 tags a year? (I know the answer)  Once we fill the freezer, aren't we just hunting for the sake of hunting and killing something despite all our assurances to the contrary?

Would I buy venison from the local store?  Maybe, especially if I had tag soup left over.  But there would be something missing:  the thoughts of what it took to bring this meat to the table while eating.  Not much glamore in reminiscing about the drive to the Krogers meat department.

Well, I gotta get off my backside and get out to my stand.  Looking forward to more on this story...

[WWTRT80]

“The only part of the deer you eat is the tenderloins?” 

Being a predator or not I do have a little problem with this.  I personally hunt for the enjoyment and comraderie.  It's a great day when I can celebrate a kill with my friends and family.  I like my venison but I would have to say I don't kill for the food.  I would be much farther ahead if I bought meat compared to the $$ I spend on equipment, gas, etc.  Not counting the countless hours spent away from home.   That being said I feel this guy is just being lazy.  If the guy doesn't want the meat I'm sure there is a family in his neighborhood that would love a couple of back hams dropped off.  It just seems wasteful and laziness to me.

One can pile up the trimmings, bones, and other non desireables and still kill the dogs.

I wonder as well how many deer this guy would tag.  How easy is it to just rip the loins out and leave. 

Graet ethics check, looking forward to the rest of the story. 

[bocephus]

I'm trying to think of the "twist" that could be in this EC but I'm coming up with nothing! 

Much of my thoughts on this have already been brought up.  I see issues with proper tagging procedures too.  Also, i get the impression that the dude is lazy and doesn't want to deal with the other meat portions.  It's work and it takes time but I still don't get just taking "some" meat.  I mean, if you like the T-loins/backstraps, why not take more meat from other areas of the deer.  Back hams have plenty of good cuts.  Makes no sense to me.  If you like to eat the meat enough to bother with any of it, why not get as much as you can from the deer.  Again, I'm trying to see a reason for not 'messing' with any more of the deer but i'm coming up short.  I'm seeing nothing but lazyness as a reason here.  The 'predator' point of view doesn't hold as much water if he doesn't at least eat something from the deer.  Then again, why bother taking anything. 
Question for Mr. Peck;
Did he seem like he thought it was just an innate urge he was satisfying or did he give reason for you to think that he enjoyed the kill?